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 removal of the Slenderman and the Rake
yeoldefreakshow
 Posted: Feb 18 2014, 07:24 PM
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I know that no one will agree with me and you shall all drive me out with pitchforks and fire but please read on, I do have (hardly any) logic behind this.

When I found the mythos I simply thought of it as 'slenderman, the rake and others' I mean after a while I found out this could not be further from the truth, but I think that is what a lot of new people think. The other reason I think they should be removed is because no one in the fear mythos created them, the fears I think should be only creatures that the fear mythos community made. Plus I know it says they are not fears, then how come they appear on the wiki page (Under fears 3 and 2)


Anyone that is my incorrect opinion.


A blog that has nothing to do with the fear mythos at all but is just a terrible attempt to be funny http://thisistheadresshi.blogspot.co.uk/
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Acelegin
 Posted: Feb 18 2014, 07:26 PM
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I honestly don't think removing them is a good idea. Even if they aren't technically Fears, they're still important to some peoples stories.


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alliterator
 Posted: Feb 18 2014, 07:27 PM
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Nobody is going to drive you out with pitchforks. In fact, many people agree with you and the Slender Man and the Rake are, in fact, no longer official Fears. They are still used quite a bit, but are now more "honorary Fears" than official ones.

The Wiki, however, isn't just for the Fears themselves. It has pages for lots of things, which is why the Slender Man and the Rake are on it.


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Channel Fear (informational, educational, cynical)
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Once There Was (the king is the kingdom)
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Notes from the Underground (a place to stay)
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DarkShadows
 Posted: Feb 18 2014, 08:06 PM
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YeOlde, just because your opinion differs from others doesn't mean it's incorrect! ^w^ Nobody here's gonna bite your head off. I personally like both creatures and think they both equally fit here (and should!), but I agree that they are technically not the same as the Fears created whole-cloth for this Mythos, because OOG they're not ours, and IG they're actually probably a bit overpowered IMHO. If you ask me, I say keep it as is - with Slendy and Rake as "Outer Fears" that can be interpreted as actual fears just like anything else. Should they be the stars of the stories or of this Mythos? No, because it's not their Mythos, they have their own! But still, perfectly usable beings in this Mythos all the same...


You're not out of the woods yet... and you never truly will be.

My Youtube ~ My ArtGrounds ~ My FictionPress ~ My Slendervlog ~ My (Personal) Blog

Blogs:
In The Dark Shadows ~ Between the Party Lines ~ Open Season ~ Shelly Loves Succulents ~ Night Class (STCZ) ~ Breaking The Waves (STCZ) ~ Graham, Positive ~ Twelve Days

Short Stories:
Project Him, a Slenderman vignette collection. ~ The Sycamore Project, decrypted tales of the Tall One. ~ The City claims another within its Drywall and Wiring ~ Got a MachineHead, it's better than the rest.
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Sordin
 Posted: Feb 18 2014, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (alliterator @ Feb 18 2014, 07:27 PM)
Nobody is going to drive you out with pitchforks.

*Sordin sharpens his pitchfork
I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I dislike the argument that "Oh they were made independently so they aren't fears." The fears grew out of the Slenderman mythos, some very creative people said "what if it wasn't just Slenderman", so they decided to take in other internet monsters working on the idea that they were all in the same world, and the fear mythos has grown from there, Slenderman and the Rake were not added as afterthoughts because the fitted the bill, they were the basis for the whole thing. Besides Slenderman is now a core part of many, many blogs as an official fear why do we have to make everyone retroactively wrong.


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proxiehunter
 Posted: Feb 18 2014, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Sordin @ Feb 18 2014, 03:09 PM)

*Sordin sharpens his pitchfork
I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I dislike the argument that "Oh they were made independently so they aren't fears." The fears grew out of the Slenderman mythos, some very creative people said "what if it wasn't just Slenderman", so they decided to take in other internet monsters working on the idea that they were all in the same world, and the fear mythos has grown from there, Slenderman and the Rake were not added as afterthoughts because the fitted the bill, they were the basis for the whole thing. Besides Slenderman is now a core part of many, many blogs as an official fear why do we have to make everyone retroactively wrong.


It's been many of those same very creative people behind the move away from Slender Man and the Rake. It's felt by some that it's time to move away from using the creations of Victor Surge and whoever it is who created the Rake. At least in part because we technically have no legal right to use them, unlike the Fears who have been licensed under Creative Commons and may be legally used by anyone. It's also felt by some that it's time for us to stand on our own and not be an off shoot or copy of something else. It was a similar reasoning that lead to me creating Playtime With Mikey after my Candle Cove blog ended.

And no one's blog is retroactively wrong because there is no canon (although depending on the blog there may be cannons). It is no more "wrong" to include tall dark and slender and the Rake than it is to include the Cthulhu mythos or the ability to summon monsters from a children's card game.
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DJay32
 Posted: Feb 18 2014, 10:41 PM
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The slender man and The Rake are Fears according to the story. According to documentation, resources, and any stories that we want to represent the Fear Mythos to outsiders, they receive brief mention of influence but ultimately we put the focus on the creatures we created. I completely agree with you, 100% wholeheartedly, right down to the "People's first reaction of our mythos is 'The Slender Man and Friends.'"

The Wiki is an objective resource for information's sake only; it includes The Slender Man and The Rake because they have been written as Fears. It's the concept of "Fear Candidates" that I completely disagree with. Slendy and The Rake should be Fear Candidates if the label truly exists. Anything that we create for use under Creative Commons 3.0, to be remixed and rewritten and effectively considered open source, is a Fear.

And the Fear Mythos may have spun off of the Slender Man Mythos, but it was less of "The Mythos should have more monsters" and more a conscious decision to make a separate mythos with its own monsters, throwing the slender man in there simply to prove that blogs can be written how they want. Really, it's anyone's guess why slendy was included, but judging from Cute's initial plan for The Dying Man Verse, it seems that he wanted to make a dramatic interpretation of slendy that was very different from the norm for the sake of showing our mythos can be a lot more liberal. And Cute was one of the people who first told me he was thinking the focus should be taken off of slendy and The Rake.


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Viceking's Graab (Step inside the maze. You could spend an eternity here.)
The Mythology of Empathy (Eight songs, nine tracks. Welcome death.)
Ancestor (Five tracks. Death of the Artist and Chinese mythology.)
Fear (A visual art exhibit in blog format.)
Nobody anymore, never again (Another visual art exhibit in blog format.)
The Everyblogger Triad: 1, 2, 3 (Embrace the bad writing, give into your psyche.)
PLAN 31 (Frank Slenderman: Ace Attorney)
OH GOD THE RAPTURE IS BURNING (400,000 words. Five months. All Fears. Excess. On fifth draft, not final.)
Topography Genera (15 blogs. Conventional horror. See seas rise.)
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NⓍFⓍurthWall
 Posted: Feb 18 2014, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE (DJay32 @ Feb 18 2014, 10:41 PM)
The Wiki is an objective resource for information's sake only; it includes The Slender Man and The Rake because they have been written as Fears. It's the concept of "Fear Candidates" that I completely disagree with. Slendy and The Rake should be Fear Candidates if the label truly exists.


I always pictured Fear Candidates as creatures that can never truly be confirmed to be a Fear, like the Deep. Otherwise the classification seems a bit pointless.


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DJay32
 Posted: Feb 19 2014, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (NⓍFⓍurthWall @ Feb 18 2014, 11:30 PM)


I always pictured Fear Candidates as creatures that can never truly be confirmed to be a Fear, like the Deep. Otherwise the classification seems a bit pointless.


In that case, slendy and The Rake definitely qualify-- they're all creatures who can be Fears but we can't confirm them in more official stuff.

Though The Deep is a bit of a special case because it just simply cannot be shown (unless that story is comedic like PLAN 31 in which case have at it, Hoss). But I think it counts, since it is a Fear, but the whole point is that we can't say anything definite about it. Basically, Fear Candidates would be better described as "Special Cases."

Really, I think the whole system for Fear articles on the Wiki needs a revision along the same lines of the series bible.


EXHIBITS:
Viceking's Graab (Step inside the maze. You could spend an eternity here.)
The Mythology of Empathy (Eight songs, nine tracks. Welcome death.)
Ancestor (Five tracks. Death of the Artist and Chinese mythology.)
Fear (A visual art exhibit in blog format.)
Nobody anymore, never again (Another visual art exhibit in blog format.)
The Everyblogger Triad: 1, 2, 3 (Embrace the bad writing, give into your psyche.)
PLAN 31 (Frank Slenderman: Ace Attorney)
OH GOD THE RAPTURE IS BURNING (400,000 words. Five months. All Fears. Excess. On fifth draft, not final.)
Topography Genera (15 blogs. Conventional horror. See seas rise.)
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CuteWithoutThe
 Posted: Feb 19 2014, 12:15 AM
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and IG they're actually probably a bit overpowered IMHO


Ehhhh, I wouldn't really say that. Slender Man is incredibly beefed up due to the sidelining Mythos he has already connected to him. Strip him out of context from that and I'd say he'd be balanced with most Fears.

Meanwhile, honestly the Rake isn't really that powerful, lessbehonest.

Sorry for nitpicking just needed to comment on that.


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DarkShadows
 Posted: Feb 19 2014, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE (Wally)
I always pictured Fear Candidates as creatures that can never truly be confirmed to be a Fear, like the Deep. Otherwise the classification seems a bit pointless.


QUOTE (DJay32 @ Feb 18 2014, 07:12 PM)

In that case, slendy and The Rake definitely qualify-- they're all creatures who can be Fears but we can't confirm them in more official stuff.


If that's the case, then why the term "Fear Candidates"? That sounds a bit patronizing, like they and the Fear Candidates themselves aren't "official" and are not really used very much, but that's not the case. I agree though that technically, Slendy and the Rake aren't really confirmed "Fears" in the traditional sense, but they can be used as Fears and have, therefore they should remain part of this Mythos. They're just not the focus because they're not part of the Fears proper, they're more like addendum beings. It varies by canon of course, but in general that's the consensus I've seen concerning these two beings.

That said, I do somewhat agree with Sordin that the argument that "Well they're not ours therefore they're not Fears" is a bit shaky, since this Mythos did grow out of that one. I think maybe we need to reconsider what qualifies as a "Fear", a "Fear Candidate", and an "Outer Fear" both in and out of game, on the wiki and off.

QUOTE
Though The Deep is a bit of a special case because it just simply cannot be shown (unless that story is comedic like PLAN 31 in which case have at it, Hoss). But I think it counts, since it is a Fear, but the whole point is that we can't say anything definite about it. Basically, Fear Candidates would be better described as "Special Cases."


Well, then where does that leave things that definitely function as Fears, but aren't vanilla, Bible-listed Fears, like the Algernon Forest (unless this has now become an official Fear as well)? Those are hardly "special cases"... whereas things like Slendy, the Deep, the Rake, and possibly Jack of All definitely are. I'd say leave things that could only really function as Fears in the "Fear Candidate" label, and move those beings that can be used in other ways or otherwise aren't quite fully Fears but still work as Fears into the "Outer Beings" category. This would allow for both without the concern of things overlapping or becoming too confusing.

QUOTE
Really, I think the whole system for Fear articles on the Wiki needs a revision along the same lines of the series bible.


100% agree. The way things are now, it's a bit confusing trying to figure out where exactly things like Fear Candidates and newer additions like my (and others!) Afflicted concept into the Mythos, whereas I think a reconsidering of what the terms mean would remedy that.

I would personally suggest the following category boundaries:

- A Fear is any being that, when taken at its Vanilla interpretation, represents the fear of something in its most basic form, but does not represent other concepts (unless written as such) and has not been used in another way such as another Mythos or a big concept. At its heart, this type of being can be boiled down to simply, "The Fear of X", even if there's a lot more you can say about it. Much like a function, this one being represents one major concept, if and only if it is the vanilla version of it. Ex. the Wooden Girl is the Fear of Control, specifically a loss or lack of it, and pretty much every interpretation, however varied or different, still keeps this aspect intact.

- A Fear Candidate is any being that can be used like a Fear, but is not used as widely as a Fear is. That is, most people would agree that it's not one of the main Vanilla!Fears and while people might use it, it's not something that's often used and it wouldn't be put on the Bible's list of Fears due to that underuse. Ex. The Vision was formerly a Fear Candidate, because it was not widely used enough at the time to make it to the main list of Fears. In fact, last I checked, it's still not on the Bible page, but I may be wrong there.

- An Outer Being (rather than Outer Fear; that label's too limiting in my opinion) is any being that, for whatever reason, does not belong in the first two categories. This may be because it belongs to another person/Mythos, is not really a Fear but still exists within the Fear Mythos canon, or represents something that is not strictly speaking an actual fear of something. These beings can be used as Fears, however, and their interpretation can always change based on how the being is written. Ex. Slenderman is an Outer Being because he was created by Victor Surge, and therefore is not strictly ours to use. However, he is an important part of many blogs/vlogs, and despite being used in other ways does have a defined Fear role, as the Fear of the Unknown.

That's probably a bit of a simplification and I know many people will disagree with me on the whole "Oh but Fears don't have to be a plain old fear of something, they can be written however you want!" But that's the point. They can be written however you want. That still doesn't change the fact that their vanilla versions represent a fear of something very specific. XD


You're not out of the woods yet... and you never truly will be.

My Youtube ~ My ArtGrounds ~ My FictionPress ~ My Slendervlog ~ My (Personal) Blog

Blogs:
In The Dark Shadows ~ Between the Party Lines ~ Open Season ~ Shelly Loves Succulents ~ Night Class (STCZ) ~ Breaking The Waves (STCZ) ~ Graham, Positive ~ Twelve Days

Short Stories:
Project Him, a Slenderman vignette collection. ~ The Sycamore Project, decrypted tales of the Tall One. ~ The City claims another within its Drywall and Wiring ~ Got a MachineHead, it's better than the rest.
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DJay32
 Posted: Feb 19 2014, 03:31 AM
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The Algernon Forest is a Fear. Anything that is written to be a Fear and is created with the intention of being a Fear is a Fear. Whether the Wiki/series bible would classify it as another take on a different Fear (like a Fear of needles being another take on The Plague Doctor) is a different question.

I want to remind people that I personally didn't want a Fear list on the series bible at all, precisely because this would become a thing. xD There is no official list of Fears. The only "official" thing is that we don't like to use creatures we didn't make in anything promotional that we might consider profiting off of. For literally anything else, all bets are off.

"Fear Candidate" is a patronizing term no matter what the context is, which is why I dislike it. But the idea of something that is written as a Fear without being "accepted" into the full list is something I think is worth keeping, using for The Slender Man, The Rake, The Deep, and any other thing we don't have permission to use. Actually, The Deep had may as well just be called a Fear at this point. It's one of the oldest creations in the mythos and hasn't changed much from its original idea-- it technically "existed" before EAT was even finalized, and it was the Fear of the unknown before we'd decided to retroactively make The Slender Man into that.

What I would personally like to have happen is for the Wiki to adopt a Fear article layout that is based off the series bible page, except editable by many more people and so we can easily add more blogs to each one's page. And then I'd like the Wiki's list to converge with Fear Candidates to allow for anything that has been written as a Fear. And then I'd like to take the Fear list off of the series bible and simply link to the Wiki's list.

Hell, that way we can even keep slendy and The Rake on there, as long as it's still made clear that we didn't create them so we don't recommend trying to go commercial with them.

And, once again, the Fear Mythos does not owe its creation to The Slender Man Mythos. It was an influence only in the sense of "Oh wow, we can tell stories in blogs," and because most of us were still pretty young and impressionable at the time, we naturally threw slendy into our blogs because we thought that would get people's attention. Correlation does not equal causation.
The Fear Mythos has paid enough homage to slendy. We don't need to give it any more special treatment. It's treated as a Fear now, it just isn't covered in anything that might potentially go commercial (like say, if we decide to put ads on the series bible), let's leave it at that.

But rather than end this post on that stubborn note, I'll bring up that Fear list suggestion again: How does that sound to people? Throw away the shackles of even so much as looking like there's an "official list," link to the Wiki, base the Wiki Fear articles off of the series bible pages so people know for sure that Fears are not limited by the scope of their existing interpretations and are in fact greater than the sum of their parts?


EXHIBITS:
Viceking's Graab (Step inside the maze. You could spend an eternity here.)
The Mythology of Empathy (Eight songs, nine tracks. Welcome death.)
Ancestor (Five tracks. Death of the Artist and Chinese mythology.)
Fear (A visual art exhibit in blog format.)
Nobody anymore, never again (Another visual art exhibit in blog format.)
The Everyblogger Triad: 1, 2, 3 (Embrace the bad writing, give into your psyche.)
PLAN 31 (Frank Slenderman: Ace Attorney)
OH GOD THE RAPTURE IS BURNING (400,000 words. Five months. All Fears. Excess. On fifth draft, not final.)
Topography Genera (15 blogs. Conventional horror. See seas rise.)
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NⓍFⓍurthWall
 Posted: Feb 19 2014, 03:54 AM
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...

I don't like getting rid of list on the bible and linking to the wiki instead in the slightest since anyone can edit it, mainly trolls that would try and ruin it. But my opinion doesn't matter and I won't say anything until these changes are finished or whatever actually manages to happen.


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DarkShadows
 Posted: Feb 19 2014, 04:04 AM
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QUOTE (DJay32 @ Feb 18 2014, 10:31 PM)
Throw away the shackles of even so much as looking like there's an "official list," link to the Wiki, base the Wiki Fear articles off of the series bible pages so people know for sure that Fears are not limited by the scope of their existing interpretations and are in fact greater than the sum of their parts?


That sounds like a good idea to me, actually. That way there is a list of anything that has ever been used as or considered as a Fear, to bring about the point that, hey, you can do anything you want really, here's a list of current beings to getcha started?


You're not out of the woods yet... and you never truly will be.

My Youtube ~ My ArtGrounds ~ My FictionPress ~ My Slendervlog ~ My (Personal) Blog

Blogs:
In The Dark Shadows ~ Between the Party Lines ~ Open Season ~ Shelly Loves Succulents ~ Night Class (STCZ) ~ Breaking The Waves (STCZ) ~ Graham, Positive ~ Twelve Days

Short Stories:
Project Him, a Slenderman vignette collection. ~ The Sycamore Project, decrypted tales of the Tall One. ~ The City claims another within its Drywall and Wiring ~ Got a MachineHead, it's better than the rest.
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Funden
 Posted: Feb 19 2014, 05:09 AM
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I have to agree with some of the others in that they have been used as Fears, or as something close to that, and so they have a place on the wiki.

I was also among the crowd who agreed that they didn't seem like true Fears to me (as they weren't created with any particular phobia in mind), but they play incredibly important roles in some people's stories, so removing them completely from the Mythos would be silly.


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